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Post by igs on Jun 18, 2017 12:20:19 GMT
I don't mean this to come across offensive, but that's America. The US more than any other Western country is focused on corporate interests "because otherwise it's a slippery slope to communism" (yawn.) You can own a bloody bakery and refuse to serve gay people on basis of "religious freedom" for heavens sake! This isn't really anything new in the American political climate, it's just that Trump being so thin-skinned and his fans (I can't call them political supporters because they seem too clueless for that) being so vocal is making the already existing problem that much worse.
Trump could scream until he was red in the face (which I assume he does on a daily basis) and there wouldn't be a problem unless the businesses that are doing something "anti-Trump" didn't prioritize profit over values. But that's been the "law of the land" since forever.
Not saying there aren't great big companies, like Starbucks is uncompromising in promoting their liberal values. I personally applaud them for that even if it hurts their business.
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Post by sgev1977 on Jun 18, 2017 12:30:35 GMT
I seriously think that liberals have worked very hard to justify their extreme reactions to offensive things that they paved the way to some politics of the actual American government. Here is an interesting article about the theme: kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2015/08/13/free-speech-in-an-age-of-identity-politics/I recently read another one that centered in the laws. Apparently the "shouting fire in a crowded theatre" analogy that liberals loved to quote was actually later overturned by the Supreme Court (It wasn't about literally screaming fire but supposing incite violence against a minority). I couldn't find it! |
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Post by sgev1977 on Jun 18, 2017 12:39:54 GMT
I don't mean this to come across offensive, but that's America. The US more than any other Western country is focused on corporate interests "because otherwise it's a slippery slope to communism" (yawn.) You can own a bloody bakery and refuse to serve gay people on basis of "religious freedom" for heavens sake! This isn't really anything new in the American political climate, it's just that Trump being so thin-skinned and his fans (I can't call them political supporters because they seem too clueless for that) being so vocal is making the already existing problem that much worse. Slightly OT or maybe not, there was a similar bakery polemic in Ireland which sparked some interesting debate: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/01/gay-cake-row-i-changed-my-mind-ashers-bakery-freedom-of-conscience-religionIts very complex. I know! But precedents are always dangerous. And I sincerely think that people ignoring them actually helped to create the actual situation. I live in one of the countries with the highest numbers of murdered journalists so freedom of speech is a joke here! Maybe that's why I feel so strong about it. |
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Post by queenzod on Jun 18, 2017 15:00:25 GMT
I really don't understand the bakery thing. How, exactly, are their religious freedoms being assaulted? They are still free to worship as they please. No one is stopping them from going to church, or temple or wherever. No one is saying they can't worship their god. If you're going to run a business in the public sector, ya gotta serve the humans who live there.
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Post by Jillian on Jun 18, 2017 15:21:04 GMT
They looked like lovely couple (the ones who refused to make the specific cake) in the article, but appareances can be deceiving.
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Post by sgev1977 on Jun 18, 2017 15:50:05 GMT
I'm not sure about the American case but in the article the gay couple were activists and they asked for a political message in favor of gay marriage on the cake. The owners supposedly didn't negate the service (which would be discriminatory without any doubt) but didn't want to write the political message because it was against their religious convictions. The author, another gay activist defended the gay couple first but then thought that the decision of the judge could create an ugly precedent and changed of mind. What if it's the opposite: someone against gay marriage legally forcing a gay baker to put a message against it on a cake. The precedent is there now: people can be forced to write political messages they don't agree with...on cakes!
It's a very complex theme and liberals tend to think that history is lineal and that the humanity will became more and more liberal with the time but history doesn't work like that. The rights we have now can easily be lost. So it's never smart to make things easy for powerful people with popular, well-intentioned but not well thought laws. Even if nowadays we are talking about the rights of free speech of disgusting people like those in the article. Or the KKK man's rights which provoked the "you don't shout fire..." analogy that was later revoked by The Supreme Court in the USA.
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Post by coolclearwaters on Jun 18, 2017 19:29:22 GMT
I don't mean this to come across offensive, but that's America. The US more than any other Western country is focused on corporate interests "because otherwise it's a slippery slope to communism" (yawn.) You can own a bloody bakery and refuse to serve gay people on basis of "religious freedom" for heavens sake! This isn't really anything new in the American political climate, it's just that Trump being so thin-skinned and his fans (I can't call them political supporters because they seem too clueless for that) being so vocal is making the already existing problem that much worse. Sigh. These bakeries refusing to serve gay customers are breaking the law. Courts in the U.S. routinely rule against them. It's not a gray area at all. Just because someone tries to get away with something, doesn't mean it's legal or that they will be successful. If your business is serving the public, you are not allowed to discriminate. You can refuse to to decorate cakes with any political message or any sexual imagery, but it has to be across the board - not singling out a particular group like, gays or an ethnic minority. Yes, U.S. economic policy, both domestic and international, is horrendous, but some European countries are just as bad. in many ways, Europe is in worse shape. If you are interested, Failed, by Mark Weisbrot, explains how neoliberal policymakers are focusing on Europe right now, to devastating effect, and how specific structural issues make Europe particularly vulnerable (the lack of accountability of the European Central Bank, for starters). SaveSave |
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