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Post by ellie on Nov 1, 2017 0:12:29 GMT
He said he doesn't remember doing it. I just find his statement weird. He had to have put thought into it - it's not like he was caught by surprise and had a microphone shoved in his face. This was a statement he worded carefully, and it's not the statement of an innocent man. That's just my opinion. Same thing. Saying he has no recollection of it is not an admission. My view is that the party was over 30 years ago and he was likely drunk or high at the time so it might very well be difficult for him to be certain about what he did or did not do. Therefore the only sensible thing for him to say was that he has no recollection. That is not me saying I do or don’t think he did it. I just don’t know and I’m not interested in rumours or gossip unless they generate some actual evidence. My only point on all of this is I find the increasing trend for traditional and social media to try and convict people on the basis of simply accusation very disturbing.
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Post by sgev1977 on Nov 1, 2017 2:25:09 GMT
There was a very bizarre case with George Bush, Sr. He was accused of touching a few women meanwhile saying a stupid rude joke when they took photos with him. His people published a statement apologizing and saying it wasn’t his intention to harm anyone is just that he do that joke, he is an old man and suggesting he has Alzheimer or some kind of senile dementia. People were angry with him and the statement on social media but everyone who claimed to work with people with senile dementia and Alzheimer or people with a familiar we’re saying it happens. They lost all inhibition and behave in way they would never did in their younger years.
I think there is a lot of things to criticize about GB but not this. How can the character of someone be judged when he is not himself anymore? Of course it’s unfair to the women but I doubt there were something really lascivious there or he threatening their physical integrity as were in other cases.
Social media could do a lot of justice to people who were not heard for years but it should be used with caution because there is also a lot of irrationality and bullying there and at the end it could damage even the most noble causes.
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Post by queenzod on Nov 1, 2017 3:04:54 GMT
I completely agree that there’s a rush to judgment. It brings up the problems with social media and it’s rabid extremism. There’s lots of good things about it, too, but the whole pitchforks crowd really gets riled up at times and loses a sense of humor and perspective.
I find the whole G. Bush thing to be a bit over the top. Maybe he shouldn’t be trying to put his arm around the people standing next to him because he’s using a wheelchair and he can’t reach their waists. So he tells an off color joke to smooth it away. The man’s at least 135 years old, for Pete’s sake. Leave him alone.
People have been being sexually inappropriate with each other since...how long have there been people? It’s not going to stop next week, and every incident is not the end of the world. Should I come out against the guy who pinched my butt when I was 15? Does anyone care?
We need to keep the focus on institutionalized forms of abuse of power, misogyny, and those kinds of things, and work together to understand, be clear, investigate and educate.
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Post by mllemass on Nov 1, 2017 7:33:49 GMT
I agree with the whole GB issue - leave the old man alone!
When I heard about it, it reminded me of a presentation I went to one time about a volunteer organization for teenagers. The organizer showed us a slide show of the good work the young people had done, including helping to build houses for Habitat for Humanity. But one of their projects was working with the elderly in local nursing homes. We were shown slides of the Christmas party the teenagers had helped organize - they decorated, served food and danced with the old people. The man who spoke to us said that before sending the teenagers off to the nursing homes, he had to explain to them that they might experience some inappropriate behaviours from the old folks. He had them role-play what to do if anyone (men or women) tried to touch them or grab them, and he told them to understand that many of them were senile and not aware of who they were with or what they were saying or doing. I think that would apply to GB.
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Post by onebluestocking on Nov 1, 2017 12:05:54 GMT
Apparently GB's joke was "do you know who my favorite magician is? David Cop-a-feel" and then he swats the women on the rear end. Not the threatening situation of HW, but of course not appropriate either. It's kind of like how people ignore racist comments from older relatives at Christmas dinner. It's unfortunate, but they are too old to change. I don't blame the women for speaking up, but it does add to "sexual harassment reporting fatigue," when it's obviously not even close to being invited to a business meeting by a man who walks in nude and demands a massage or he will ruin your career!
Has he been diagnosed with Alzheimer's or dementia?
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Post by onebluestocking on Nov 1, 2017 12:08:16 GMT
Regarding Kevin Spacey, is there any way to prove or disprove whether he laid down on top of a boy 30 years ago? It's not like there is DNA evidence or witnesses. I suspect everyone knew it was going on, so nobody is doubting Rapp's story. Ideally these things would have to be proven, but in most cases I don't see that happening except by the harasser's known pattern of behavior.
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Post by sgev1977 on Nov 1, 2017 12:21:34 GMT
I don’t know if it’s offcial. I don’t think so but they can of suggested a mental issue in one of his statements when they said “he is 93” as justification (some people indeed interpreted it as “he is from another time”). There have been rumors for years and I was surprised that all comments I saw by medial professionals defended him saying that behavior was actually very common in someone with senile dementia. Someone who said has a direct familiar who worked with him for years says he is not the same man.
I think the Parkinson is official, tho. Still I think it was too much to call the incidents "sexual assault", especially when there's a possibility of a mental illness.
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Post by ellie on Nov 1, 2017 12:23:29 GMT
I’m not sure there is any way to prove the Spacey allegation but that should not be a reason to convict him unless there is a proven pattern of similar behaviour. At present all we have is rumour and gossip. If those rumours and gossip are investigated and deemed credible enough to suggest a pattern of such behaviour then, yes, it is fair enough that the decision is based on the balance of probability. But that has not happened yet.
The mob mentality of the internet bothers me. It is simply not right or fair to take rumour and gossip as evidence of guilt and “convict” without proper investigation.
In fact it makes me feel like the best get rich quick scheme right now would be to set up an online “flamingtorchesRus” store as the trade from the internet “villagers would be phenomenal.
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Post by ellie on Nov 1, 2017 12:29:04 GMT
I don’t know if it’s offcial. I don’t think so but they can of suggested a mental issue in one of his statements when they said “he is 93” as justification (some people indeed interpreted it as “he is from another time”). There have been rumors for years and I was surprised that all comments I saw by medial professionals defended him saying that behavior was actually very common in someone with senile dementia. Someone who said has a direct familiar who worked with him for years says he is not the same man. Innapropriate sexual behaviour and language is a known symptom of some forms of dementia. My Mum who is in the very advanced stage of dementia and is now in a care home has never demonstrated this behaviour but there are some residents in the Home who do. Before they got his medication sorted and the illness moved on to another phase there was one guy who was prone to taking all his clothes off and wandering up to the Nurses office saying he was looking for his wife as they were going to have sex and she disappeared. His wife had died about 20 years ago! Parkinson’s is frequently associated with a form of Dementia called “Dementia with Lewy Bodies” so it is possible this is what GB is suffering from.
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Post by coolclearwaters on Nov 1, 2017 13:52:25 GMT
I agree that the stuff about GB is not serious although I can understand the women being uncomfortable. Maybe his family or handlers should be a little more aware and try to have some kind of buffer between him and women.
I’m really not seeing a witch hunt here in the charges against men in the film industry. Most of what we’ve seen is along the lines of the Boston Globe’s reporting on the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church - researched news articles about rampant, unchecked abuse within a powerful institution. That is what is driving the story. As with the Spotlight coverage, more victims have been emboldened to come forward by the reporting. So far, those targeted have been very low hanging fruit - men whose abuse has been a very open secret for years.
The filing of criminal charges is not the only standard of proof here. Companies and institutions have an obligation to ensure that people who work for and with them are not being harassed or attacked. They need to conduct their own investigations and set up policies to prevent most of these abuses from continuing. Just because those investigations don’t take place in public doesn’t mean there aren’t safeguards in place. Women and other victims also need to organize and hold these creeps and their enablers feet to the fire - let them know that there will be consequences to their actions. Business as usual is just no longer acceptable.
Of course people react on Twitter, but the reaction goes both ways. Anthony Rapp has been pilloried in some quarters and Asia Argento has been driven out of Italy.
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