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Post by sgev1977 on Oct 26, 2017 23:06:04 GMT
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Post by roverpup on Dec 21, 2017 5:42:17 GMT
I read a review of the new Star Wars movie (I don’t really know why because I have zero interest in Star Wars but nevertheless I read it) and found an interesting quote -
“A good strong villain, at the character’s core, makes you care about the hero, while at the same time, makes both the villain and the hero interesting. It’s rather a dynamic symbiotic relationship of sorts, involving mutual growth however long the story or a saga lasts. How does this happen?
Answer, a good villain puts the hero, or the heroine, through the paces, to embolden the hero to greater resourcefulness, to be ever more creative and ingenious. Again growth on both sides. All the while, there’s that sense of imperilment upon the hero while the villain puts the hero through the paces, and doesn’t let up of course until the climax.”
I was just thinking - does Khan do this in STiD? Just thought I would throw this out for discussion... I think he does. Reasons? That will come later in another post. Got to go to bed now!
:-))
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Post by queenzod on Dec 21, 2017 8:59:02 GMT
I wouldn’t call Khan a villain, actually. I think he’s more of an antagonist. The real villain was Admiral Marcus.
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Post by mllemass on Dec 21, 2017 11:43:00 GMT
Yes, Marcus turns out to be the real villain, planning everything and putting it into motion so that he could sit back and watch it all unfold. However, for the first part of the movie we're supposed to think that Khan is the villain, and he does a very believable job at it!
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Post by roverpup on Dec 21, 2017 16:13:12 GMT
I actually think it is the other way around (to me at least) - Marcus was the antagonist and Khan is the villain.
Marcus while corrupt is the one person in Star Fleet that stands in the way of Kirk achieving his objective - to capture Khan and avenge the dealth of his mentor. Even after Marcus is destroyed the movie still has not reached the climax - the neutralizing of the threat that Khan poses to the people of earth. That makes Khan the true villain of the piece because after he is vanquished the film draws to it’s denouement. Marcus was just an obstacle in Kirk/Spock’s path to stopping Khan from destroying the people of earth.
As per the definition I based this pondering of mine on, Khan fits many more of the traits of a good villain than Marcus does.
Khan is amuch more interesting and complex character than Marcus to me, and that in turn makes the characters of Kirk and Spock more interesting. The character of Marcus is a much more simpler antagonist and doesn’t lend any complexity that reflects back to Kirk/Spock to make them more interesting.
Khan has a very strong ‘dynamic symbiotic relationship of sorts” with Kirk (Marcus does not). There is a definite parallel between Kirk/Spock (and what he/they would do for his/their “family”) and Khan that is explored in an important scene. No such dynamic is explored with Marcus and Kirk/Spock.
And this “relationship” with Khan and the protagonist figures of the film makes the characters more interesting and also shows a growth - especially as it relates to Kirk (his lack of responsibility mentioned by Kirk’s father figure in the beginning is brought into play when he decides to shoulder the responsibility of fixing the ship so it can go on it’s rescue mission AND also Spock’s growth as he let’s his human emotional side take over and revenge’s the harm that Khan caused to his friend Kirk). There is a lot of interplay between Spock and Khan as well that culminates with the struggle they have on top of the freighter barge. There is virtually no relationship between Marcus and Spock.
Khan is the real challenge for both Kirk and Spock. While Marcus is a formidable foe in the way of Kirk/Spock bringing Khan to justice and creates a lot of important action in the movie, Khan is even more of a resourceful villain who is even more difficult to defeat in the end. And the sense of imperilment that accompanies the character of Khan is much more complex and demands a lot of Kirk (and Spock) in the sense that they have to work with Khan to overcome Marcus and yet still be acutely aware that Khan isn not an altruistic ally but the ultimate enemy. That really does put both Kirk and Spock “through the paces and doesn’t let up of course until the climax” of the film.
:-))
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Post by queenzod on Dec 21, 2017 17:51:50 GMT
I had a lot of problems with STiD in the beginning, until I just let go and watched it for Bens performance. All that nonsense in the opening about cold fusion devices being used to freeze an active volcano. Yeah, right. Snort.
While I completely loved Ben, I did feel like he was in a different movie than everyone else. His presence and gravitas, his commitment to the role and his intensity blew everyone else off the screen.
While your version of that quote fits together, I still classify Khan as an antagonist, not a villain. Marcus was a tropish kind of villain. Not a lot of meat there, but Peter Weller tried.
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Post by mllemass on Dec 21, 2017 21:15:01 GMT
The way I saw it, Marcus used Khan to carry out his evil plan. But it didn't go his way because Khan had his own evil plan.
Benedict was the best thing in that movie!
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Post by miriel68 on Dec 22, 2017 9:51:39 GMT
Khan had his own evil plan. But was his plan really "evil"? If we think about it, Khan's main goal was to save his crew, his family. He was pretty ruthless about how to achieve this, yes, but I fail to see him as a villain. More an antihero. Let's consider the situation from Khan's point of view: He is awoken by the Starfleet and blackmailed/coerced/very possibly tortured in order to project ships weapons etc. for military purposes (ATTACK weapons, not defense ones) When he escapes and is convinced that his people have been murdered, he seeks revenge (well, for Kirk it was enough to lose one person dear to him to go berserk). However, he doesn't take revenge on random people, but on those who are working on secret weapons and on high command of the Starfleet. He saves Kirk's life and surrenders when he learns his people are still alive. Kirk welcomes his prisoner by trying to beat him to the pulp. Then Khan agrees to help Kirk and saves his life (again!), helps him to conquer the Vengeance and the first thing Kirk does to prove that he is "a good guy" is to stun him. Khan uses Kirk as a hostage to finally get his people back and yes, he fires at Enterprise, but don't they have escape pods? It is not like he is killing the crew in cold blood, and frankly, at this point, I would be tempted to fire at the Entrprise as well. Then the torpedoes explode and convinced that his people are dead and he has been tricked again, he seeks his final vendetta, trying to crash on STARFLEET headquarters - not on the city. Then the "good guys" prevail and what do they do? They let Khan's people frozen, which is more or less a death verdict. It seems Khan was right all along, thinking that Starfleet is evil. And if we talk about "obstacles", I would say Kirk is an obstacle to Khan, no other way around. Khan has no issues with Kirk (until he betrays him), it is Kirk who wants to kill, or at least "neutralize" Khan.
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Post by sgev1977 on Dec 22, 2017 11:38:33 GMT
IMO the new Khan was much more based in Rutger Hauer’s Roy Baty than the original Khan. It’s indeed more an anti-hero than a plain villain. As Roy, he is presented as someone ruthless at the beginning but little by little we know his reasons and at the end he seems more human than the human hero.
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Post by mllemass on Dec 22, 2017 12:50:41 GMT
I think "villain" is being used in a comic-book sense in this discussion - at least on my part. Marcus was a creep right to the end, but I liked Khan. He knew he had been thawed out so that Marcus could exploit his savagery.
Marcus was the "mad scientist" who built a "monster" to help him take over the world, and Khan was the "monster" who wanted to rescue all the other monsters.
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