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Post by llminnowpea on Sept 20, 2022 14:14:39 GMT
I live in the middle of Toxic Masculinity Land(tm) and it is a thing here, but it is a stupid dominance, posturing and joking thing (and, rather disgusting). It is just one of the many traits of toxic masculinity - women are possessions that must be protected and saved and cherished and GAG ME WITH A SPOON GROSS. It isn't a male trait so much as it is a toxic masculinity trait.
Conversations go like this:
Guy: I have a huge monkey wrench/tire iron. Want me to go use it on them?
Me: I have one, too, thanks, and I am capable of using myself, if needed. (Then I walk off because IRL violence grosses me out)
Guy: has shocked Pikachu face where you know they are thinking "hey little lady, you can't take care of yourself, that is what the menz are for"
Kind of like how I can mow my own lawn, cut down my own trees, or even open my own pickle jar (I KNOW - EVERYONE IS GASPING IN SURPRISE).
BUT, like you, I have plenty of men in my life who are not like this. Because they see women and other human beings as people who can take care of themselves, that violence isn't the answer, and that if we need help, we will ask for it.
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Post by llminnowpea on Sept 20, 2022 14:25:09 GMT
Have any of you read A Primate's Memoir?
These behaviors are learned and not all nature (some is but it can be controlled). That book talks about a troop of bonobos who lost all the aggressive males due to bacterial poisoning (they ate bad garbage and all died out). The females then ruled the troop and only mated with males who reined in their aggressive traits. Even males not born into the troop learned to keep their aggression in check (because it meant they wouldn't be groomed or have sex). And, as a result, the troop as a whole flourished and was less aggressive. That is because the females chose to no longer reward aggression and, as a result, the males changed.
The work that Robert Sapolsky and other scientists do is really interesting. As is the book Phallacy, which lays out why so much science around males, being male, and how little science there is about being female, is skewed to help perpetuate the innate belief in (mostly male) scientists about what it means to be male (hint: patriarchal society gave us these beliefs and science doesn't really support them - for instance, dominance is just crap science and leads to a lot of harm in both humans and dogs).
ETA: And, something you all might be interested in - there was a study that showed that men who were nurturing had smaller testicle size than those who were not, but IIRC they also showed the men to be happier because they were nurturing to their family and friends. What I can't remember is if the study was done long term - like, did the testicle size shrink after the men became fathers and became more nurturing? It may have been part of the study, but I can't remember and I am too tired to go hunt for it (Sapolsky listed above may have written an editorial about it, which is why I read the study). ETA2: and because this was presented by Sapolsky or one of his ilk, there was no value assigned to having larger or smaller testicles - it was just an interesting fact (ie, the scientists didn't think they were lesser men because of this, but I bet society sure would mock them for it).
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Post by mllemass on Sept 20, 2022 14:49:26 GMT
I’ve never been married, but I’ve heard married women complain that their husbands seem to think that they have to solve every little problem. So when we (women) are simply venting to men, they’re thinking “I have to solve this problem for her!” Ha!
The only time I ever thought to ask for my hairdresser’s help was when I was hoping his show-biz connections could get me TIFF tickets to The imitation Game when it was sold out! Even then, it didn’t work out because his connection wanted hundreds of dollars for one ticket.
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Post by roverpup on Sept 20, 2022 15:24:39 GMT
I’ve never been married, but I’ve heard married women complain that their husbands seem to think that they have to solve every little problem. So when we (women) are simply venting to men, they’re thinking “I have to solve this problem for her!” Well, I have been married for almost 50 years and know many married people and I have had a totally different experience. When I present a problem to Dan (venting) he encourages me to think my way through it and handle it myself. If it involves a problem for both of us, then we both put our heads together and try and solve it together. Dan knows I'm a thoughtful, intelligent woman who can apply my mind to solve my own problems. He's there to support me if I need a second opinion or someone to bounce ideas off of, but he has confidence that I can think my way through to solutions. And I have the same confidence in him.
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Post by mllemass on Sept 20, 2022 15:42:22 GMT
Of course! That’s why women don’t like it when men jump in to “solve” their problems. We think we’re just venting and want someone to listen to us, but they think “she needs my help!” And yes, it can be insulting that they think you aren’t able to handle the situation yourself.
I would never hint around that I need someone’s help, and I don’t know any women who do that. If I need your help, I’ll come right out and ask for it!
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Post by roverpup on Sept 20, 2022 16:39:28 GMT
Surely you must know some men who can listen without trying to jump in and solve women's problems?
Or in inverse - you must also know some women who have an inclination to want to behave in a similar manner when dealing with a man who is just venting?
From my personal experiences, I'm inclined to think this is less gender based and more of just a personality quirk for certain types of people.
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Post by roverpup on Sept 20, 2022 17:23:42 GMT
I don't know of any man who behaves that way. Will Smith's behaviour was appalling and viewed that way by any man I spoke to about that situation.
I am going to continue to believe that his behaviour is completely out of step with what most men's reaction would be. I also think his chosen family environment may have contributed to an atmosphere whereby it didn't foster respect and trust in anyone's ability to solve their own problems whether they ask for assistance or not.
I was raised in a home where problems were dealt with in a frank and open manner by those directly involved. Never once did my mother ever say "Wait until your father gets home!". She dealt with any discipline herself and we were answerable to her for any poor choices on our part. My father wasn't submissive or weak, he also was involved in our raising, but he knew my mother was a capable parent who could guide us along when he wasn't there. We were also raised to handle our own behaviour because we were held accountable for our own actions. That was considered taking responsibility. But maybe those are outdated concepts? I was raised in the 50s and 60s, so that ancient times nowadays.
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Post by mllemass on Sept 20, 2022 18:08:36 GMT
My sister and I were raised to be terrified of my father (in the 60s and 70s). All my cousins were raised the same way - to fear their fathers. And my father really could be scary, with a loud voice that always sounded like he was yelling at you. Eventually, we realized that there was nothing to be afraid of. He was very vocal about being opposed to corporal punishment. He would often say that a “real man” would never need to use spanking or other violence to get children to obey. We were actually much more scared of my mother, who had a million rules for us and made us do tons of boring chores! She’s also the one to give her approval if we asked to do something. If she ever said “no” and we kept begging, she’d eventually say “Go ask your father” - like the time in high school when I wanted to go to a concert in Toronto. So I asked my father, and he gave his usual ”What did your mother say?” response. “She said no”, I’d answer. And nearly always, he’d say “Yeah, ok, but . . . don’t come home late / Your sister has to go with you, and stay together” and so on. My parents were far from permissive, but we didn’t ask for much so that they were ok with saying yes when it was important to us.
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Post by llminnowpea on Sept 20, 2022 18:52:55 GMT
I don't know of any man who behaves that way. Will Smith's behaviour was appalling and viewed that way by any man I spoke to about that situation. I am going to continue to believe that his behaviour is completely out of step with what most men's reaction would be. I also think his chosen family environment may have contributed to an atmosphere whereby it didn't foster respect and trust in anyone's ability to solve their own problems whether they ask for assistance or not. I was raised in a home where problems were dealt with in a frank and open manner by those directly involved. Never once did my mother ever say "Wait until your father gets home!". She dealt with any discipline herself and we were answerable to her for any poor choices on our part. My father wasn't submissive or weak, he also was involved in our raising, but he knew my mother was a capable parent who could guide us along when he wasn't there. We were also raised to handle our own behaviour because we were held accountable for our own actions. That was considered taking responsibility. But maybe those are outdated concepts? I was raised in the 50s and 60s, so that ancient times nowadays. eta: tl;dr - What I mean to say by this long post, RP, is that your experiences give me hope. And, I hope that others are able to model better behavior from folks like you and Dan. The hard thing about this world of perfectly imperfect humans is that abuse comes from abuse and trauma and unless you see better, you don't always know you can do better. ******************************************************************************* You are very, very lucky and I am glad that you have had these experiences, RP! And, there are a lot of men like you describe. I prefer to spend my social time with men like that. They are much more fun and more safe. And, I have quite a few friends like that. I love hearing about you and Dan. I hope that someday, I can find a (single) friend like that who might also be more than a friend. One never knows! But, those men do not negate my other experiences, either, and I am currently working in a male dominated industry where I am constantly being mansplained to, where I have to set very strict boundaries to not be hit on sexually, and where I risk being called a raging bitch when I do set those boundaries. These are often very very intelligent (they would put Sherlock to shame) and very very well educated men. And, some of them are just plain old toxic. They are from every age and every background. Not all. But, some. The good ones support me. Unfortunately, I have to work with the shitty ones, too. But, again, I work in a STEM field, where this has been studied and talked about for years and years. We are making great strides, for sure, but it is still there, so we in the field can't let our guard down quite yet. When I first got my degree 25 years ago, I was one of 8 women in my graduating class with my major (I am a Chemical Engineer) and for 10+ years of my working career, the only women I would see would be my direct coworkers in my office - when I was out doing inspections, I met with men. Often alone in very remote areas. Honestly, sometimes, things would be so sketchy that I would decide what route I would take when trying to outrun someone before I got out of my car (I never had to - my bosses always knew where I was and if I was truly afraid, I could just leave). I also grew up in a household where my father blew up like a dry drunk (ie, like Phil) on a regular basis. And, the men I grew up with were very much the same. A lot of "haha, boys will be boys" and "he hits you because he has a crush on you" and crap like that. So, I am more sensitive to it, because I had no choice but to learn the warning signals when I was 4/5/6 and all the way up through adulthood. The thing about my dad is that in public, you or anyone else would think he is that nice guy. The one that listens. He is a great actor until he gets angry. And, he waits until we are home to let loose. This is typical abuser behavior - they hide it really well. And, you don't know they are like that until they suck you in, unfortunately. They are very very good at acting, but, after some wisdom, there are subtle warning signs. Unfortunately, you almost have to experience it to know them. But, I am so happy to hear that you have a group of people you know that are nice and not toxic! That means there is hope in the world! And, you have no idea how much comfort your stories and adventures with Dan gives me, this silly internet stranger - it is so nice to hear how good things are! Especially the fancy desserts and the BUNNIES!
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Post by mllemass on Sept 20, 2022 19:37:10 GMT
I’m so sorry you had to grow up with this!
My sister recently had a conversation about one of my uncles who passed away years ago. He was the life of every party, and at every family event, he put on a show - with songs and jokes and hilarious stories. I used to be kind of jealous of my cousins (there were 5 siblings) because they had such a fun father.
But something was off. Two of the girls got married right after their high school graduation, and one dropped out of school and was engaged at 15. All three married older men they barely knew. They were eager for their freedom, away from their father. They were kept pretty much as servants in their house, along with their mother. The two oldest were males, who were free to come and go as they pleased, with no questions asked. I was at their house once and witnessed the three girls and their mother running around to get the brothers ready for a Friday night out - ironing their shirts, shining their shoes, fetching stuff for them. It was clear that it was just an ordinary Friday for them, and I was horrified. I remember thinking “I’m so glad I don’t have a brother, because I’d have to do this for him”. Just thinking of that put me in a rage, even though I was only maybe 10 or 11 at the time.
It turned out that the girls were never permitted to go anywhere, other than to school. Not to the grocery store, not to a movie, not to hang out at the mall. My uncle was a very different man in private. I believe that he beat the girls if they stepped out of line. He was being “protective” of them, supposedly. After the girls were married, they had babies right away and all their freedom really was gone! They once heard me and my sister talking about a trip we’d taken, and they told us that we were so lucky to have such young, modern parents who allowed us to do stuff like that. Ha! Yes, my parents were the youngest of all my aunts and uncles, and maybe they learned from the mistakes the older folks made with raising their kids. I may have been scared of doing something wrong and getting in trouble, but I was never afraid of a beating. I was never made to feel like a servant in my own family and less than anyone else.
I think I’ve mentioned before that the secretary of my former workplace often spoke about how much she loved school and wished she could have attended university. But, she said, her father was “old fashioned” and didn’t think girls should be educated. She’d tell us about her father hiding her shoes or school books so that she couldn’t go to school. He wanted her to drop out and get a job to help support the family. She’d laugh about it, but they were difficult stories to hear. One day, the head of the finance department was in the lunch room while the secretary spoke about her father, and she said to her “That wasn’t your father being old-fashioned. That was your father being an alcoholic. I know, because I grew up with an alcoholic father, too.” It was so sad!
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