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Post by jbc12 on Sept 18, 2023 12:49:09 GMT
Just off the back of the Brand allegations, I was wondering if we could have a discussion about the general climate we're in, where abuse of power, harassment and sexual assault are as rampant as ever, in spite of the many public scandals that have highlighted the issues. I'm disheartened and worry that things will never improve. You'd hope that with all these high-profile cases of alleged abusive behaviour (Rubiales, Franco, Brand, Haddish- to name a few recent ones), it would bring about some change but, for all the discourse around it, I'm not seeing anything actually get accomplished. It's all bread and circuses as we collectively move from one outrageous incident to another, while the fundamental issues remain unaddressed and the system that enabled these abuses quietly chugs along with no overhaul in sight.
I had originally hoped that this generation- being so open and inclusive, and so very, very vocal- would be the one to make a real mark and change the culture. Certainly people are more informed about what constitutes harassment, toxic behaviour and consent now. People are able to speak up in a way that previous generations simply couldn't. They're also more open to understanding that abuses happen to all genders, not just women. However, all of that doesn't seem to be translating to any material change in real life. Rather, it seems that all the online discourse may be fuelling the problem. Abusers get both validation and inspiration from online echo chambers, victims get shamed on a global scale, and manipulators capitalize on the outrage to push their own agendas.
In my youth, parents were terrified that video games would make us all the more aggressive lol, but now I legitimately fear that young adults today have unfettered access to prolific pornographic material that is eroding boundaries at terrifying rate. People are becoming desensitized and the concepts of respect, boundaries and consent seem blurry now. I'm not sure it's going to safer for the next generation and that really upsets me.
There's the hope that great parents will raise great kids, and that good famous role models like Benedict and Keanu will set the right example, but it does feel like just a drop in the ocean.
I'm interested to hear whether you agree or feel differently. What do you think we need to do to break this cycle so that people can be safe?
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Post by mllemass on Sept 18, 2023 16:11:31 GMT
I just wrote a long post about RB, but my internet went down and it vanished. Ok -I’ll try it again here! Having a celebrity say that he believes his relationships were consensual means nothing! We’ve all known men in real life (bosses or co-workers) who believed we were flattered by their creepy attention. That’s because we were taught to just smile in response, while thinking “Eewww!”. So can you imagine what a wealthy famous celebrity thinks of himself? Now, we could start teaching girls to stop smiling at unwanted attention, but that might not be safe. So how about we start teaching boys to stop with the creepy comments to girls? And then maybe when those boys grow up, they won’t turn into creepy old guys saying gross things to young girls who smile nervously in response. We are NOT flattered!
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Post by llminnowpea on Sept 18, 2023 16:45:20 GMT
I have a few thoughts, but, first, a favor. Would you mind putting the description of your friend's rape behind a spoiler? It could be really triggering for some who have gone through similar and I know that isn't your intention!
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Post by llminnowpea on Sept 18, 2023 16:55:20 GMT
Now, my thoughts:
Until we (we meaning society) stop thinking that women's bodies and what happens to women's bodies are anyone's business but the woman and her medical team, we are never ever going to make progress on the issue of men's entitlement to other people's bodies.
Fundamentally, if someone thinks it is OK to meddle in my medical choices, then they do not think I am a full person. Yes, I am talking about abortion.
If doctors insist that women can't get their tubes tied until their partner says it is ok or until the women reach a certain age, then they are taking away a fundamental decision and, essentially, saying that the woman isn't a person who can make her own decisions (and, live with those decisions).
A really good book (if a bit dry sometimes) is called Phallacy by Emily Willingham. So much "data" is dirty (ie, inaccurate) because of the biases against women in society.
Also, The Trouble With Testosterone by Robert Sapolsky is a fantastic book (along with his book A Primate's Memoir).
We are never going to get a handle on this until women are truly equal. And, that isn't going to happen anytime soon with the shit pseudoscience spouted by people like RB or Tate.
Dominance isn't the thing they think it is. Anyone who uses Alpha Male (or Beta Male) needs to sit down and shut up. They are using a term incorrectly and it is VERY obvious that they have no idea what they are talking about. Yet, people believe them because they seem smart.
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Post by mllemass on Sept 18, 2023 17:01:54 GMT
I have a few thoughts, but, first, a favor. Would you mind putting the description of your friend's rape behind a spoiler? It could be really triggering for some who have gone through similar and I know that isn't your intention! I just deleted that part because the spoiler thing wasn’t working - my stupid internet! I really did leave out a lot of detail, but I realize it wasn’t enough. Sorry!
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Post by llminnowpea on Sept 18, 2023 17:24:42 GMT
Thank you! I wish the internet wasn't being finicky, though.
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Post by jbc12 on Sept 18, 2023 18:16:08 GMT
Now, we could start teaching girls to stop smiling at unwanted attention, but that might not be safe. So how about we start teaching boys to stop with the creepy comments to girls? And then maybe when those boys grow up, they won’t turn into creepy old guys saying gross things to young girls who smile nervously in response. We are NOT flattered! I wholeheartedly agree that we should start by teaching kids the right lessons. I think that's needed for all genders. Boundaries, respect, expressions of interest without force and with an understanding that you're not owed reciprocation of your feelings. I think parents like BC (because that's why we're here, right? ) do set an example and will raise respectful kids who wouldn't dream of forcing themselves upon another. My worry is that many kids don't have that stable home life to learn. Also, even if they're taught early, isn't it likely that those teachings will be overridden by the stuff they see on their phones (because there really is a lot of nsfw stuff that even kids can access- on twitter or tumblr, even). How much will they unlearn when their friends influence them, or they start watching Tate's videos? I swear the Tate fanboys terrify me more than he does. That's the difference in today's world. These social media platforms are all kinds of wonderful but, at the same time, they're really problematic. I don't know how we correct course from where we are now. Edit: I have also mentioned before that I'm concerned about the OF situation. I still feel it's an exploitative system and I worry that it's normalizing submissive behaviours and furthering the dehumanizing of women in particular. They're just commodities on the platform, after all. PS. I don't know what you edited out but, I just want to say that I'm sorry for your friend's experience. It breaks my heart that most people have either been harassed/assaulted or know someone in their direct circle who has been. It shouldn't be the norm. We all deserve to be safe. Until we (we meaning society) stop thinking that women's bodies and what happens to women's bodies are anyone's business but the woman and her medical team, we are never ever going to make progress on the issue of men's entitlement to other people's bodies. This is such a great point! It applies to women everywhere, too. Your starting point is the US but it applies equally to someone in South Asia. I'll be pondering this further. Thank you for the book recommendations!
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Post by queenzod on Sept 18, 2023 20:56:39 GMT
I’m a cynic. I don’t think anything will ever break this cycle, although we may be able to reduce the number of incidents through continuing to speak up and educating others. Men have been doing this crap forever and a great number of them don’t have the understanding that it’s wrong. They think they’re entitled. Others who maybe know it’s wrong still can’t control their behaviors (which is a very human thing). Lots of people can’t control themselves, whether it’s an addiction, sexual harassment, a drive for power, or not being able to not eat that piece of chocolate after dinner. We don’t really have very good control over our own brains and hormones, and the things that drive behavior.
I’m not saying it’s all bad and there’s no hope, but it’s going to be a very long slog even to get those people who support these abusers to realize it’s wrong.
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Post by jbc12 on Sept 19, 2023 14:26:12 GMT
Men have been doing this crap forever and a great number of them don’t have the understanding that it’s wrong. They think they’re entitled. Just about this, my brother was saying something similar. He said he had a couple of mates try to share intimate photos of women they'd dated and my brother blew his top on them, telling them in no uncertain terms that it was abhorrent behaviour. He ended those friendships but said he knows it made absolutely no difference. Those types of men don't understand that it's wrong and no amount of explaining will get through to them. They'll just find other friends who are likeminded.
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Post by queenzod on Sept 19, 2023 15:09:09 GMT
This video came across my YouTube feed a few days ago and I can’t stop thinking about it. It’s about peeping Toms in movies and the act of voyeurism. The number of clips is astonishing and he does a good job investigating and discussing all aspects of this trope. I’ve never really thought about it like this before - the prevalence of it makes me sick and to think this is what we’re teaching young men is ok. No wonder we have a problem with the way women are treated irl! m.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSiwHnV5L0
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