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Post by queenzod on Aug 22, 2018 23:18:49 GMT
I’m completely surmising here, but the new thing with AA makes me think she’s had a history of being sexually abused from a young age. I know so many women who were abused in their childhoods who have the same sort of mixed up behavior around sex and boundaries. Sometimes they present as hypersexualized, since that’s what they were taught their worth is based upon, and they often get involved in these confused abused/abuser relationships, flipping back and forth between victim and perpetrator.
I agree there’s tons of double standards going on, mental illness, genuinely manipulative abuse, and mainly a hugely fucked up situation. Very complicated legally, emotionally, and morally. Here’s to hoping people are getting the support they need.
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Post by sgev1977 on Aug 23, 2018 0:31:49 GMT
I don't know too much about her past but she always seemed slightly unhinged. The same with McGowan.
In general, the movement quickly degenerated in a mob demanding people being fired without a fair trial or even an investigation, minor situations receiving the same treatment that real crimes and people being guilty for association or for giving opinions! I remember that both Tom Hanks and Matt Damon were attacked for suggesting that not all accusations were the same!
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Post by mllemass on Aug 23, 2018 0:39:12 GMT
I thought the same thing.
We had a woman at work a few years back who sued our employer for something that had happened to her more than 30 years earlier. She said that when she was first hired, her supervisor promised her promotions for sexual favours. It wasn’t made clear how long this went on, but she was indeed promoted several times. We saw her as a great success, so the lawsuit raised a lot of questions. She was basically admitting that she had received promotions that she hadn’t really earned - and that made all of us women look bad. A lot of men were happy to point out that a woman couldn’t actually reach that level of success without sleeping with someone. It was such a mess! No one doubted what she said because we all knew what that supervisor was like. He had retired years before the lawsuit, so this woman blamed our employer who had to have been aware of it and allowed it to take place. The multi-million-dollar lawsuit was eventually settled for an undisclosed amount, and a year later she returned to work to yet another promotion. She remained there until she retired.
I still have mixed feelings about all of it. It’s possible that at first she was flattered by the attention of her handsome older boss - why else would she go along with that arrangement? And I suppose after a while it starts to feel normal, so you keep doing it? I don’t know. To me, she always came across as strong, intelligent and confident, so it’s hard to imagine her as a naive 22-year-old being chased around the boss’s desk. But it was the 1970’s, so maybe that kind of thing was common in workplaces back then?
The last time I saw her was at a young colleague’s wedding. After retiring, she started a wedding planning business. We chatted a bit, and she was still the same lovely person I remembered.
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Post by roverpup on Aug 23, 2018 1:35:22 GMT
I don't know too much about her past but she always seemed slightly unhinged. The same with McGowan. In general, the movement quickly degenerated in a mob demanding people being fired without a fair trial or even an investigation, minor situations receiving the same treatment that real crimes and people being guilty for association or for giving opinions! I remember that both Tom Hanks and Matt Damon were attacked for suggesting that not all accusations were the same! My feelings exactly. I saw a HUGE tumblr post with hundreds of likes on it berating Damon in the harshest of terms and accusing him of "supporting rape", all because he had the audacity to suggest that that NOT all men are rapists and that there were indeed degrees of "wrongness" with inappropriate behaviour (a stupid sexist joke isn't on the same level as forceable penetration and the "punishment" should be tailored to suit the crime, so to speak). There doesn't seem to be a lot of thought behind the inflamed oversimplified passions of this movement unfortunately. Not as much of a search for equality and justice, as a drive for mob rule and blind revenge. I think this sort of thing tends to devalue the legitimate cases and could actually cause the movement to lose steam, when the "lighter fluid" aspects burn off and those SJW move on to a new "cause". And what a shame because there are some very legitimate issues concerning this topic out there, but they won't begin to be solved accusing Tom Hanks and Matt Damon of misogyny and sexual politics. :-)) |
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Post by ellie on Aug 23, 2018 9:47:12 GMT
I don't know too much about her past but she always seemed slightly unhinged. The same with McGowan. In general, the movement quickly degenerated in a mob demanding people being fired without a fair trial or even an investigation, minor situations receiving the same treatment that real crimes and people being guilty for association or for giving opinions! I remember that both Tom Hanks and Matt Damon were attacked for suggesting that not all accusations were the same! My feelings exactly. I saw a HUGE tumblr post with hundreds of likes on it berating Damon in the harshest of terms and accusing him of "supporting rape", all because he had the audacity to suggest that that NOT all men are rapists and that there were indeed degrees of "wrongness" with inappropriate behaviour (a stupid sexist joke isn't on the same level as forceable penetration and the "punishment" should be tailored to suit the crime, so to speak). There doesn't seem to be a lot of thought behind the inflamed oversimplified passions of this movement unfortunately. Not as much of a search for equality and justice, as a drive for mob rule and blind revenge. I think this sort of thing tends to devalue the legitimate cases and could actually cause the movement to lose steam, when the "lighter fluid" aspects burn off and those SJW move on to a new "cause". And what a shame because there are some very legitimate issues concerning this topic out there, but they won't begin to be solved accusing Tom Hanks and Matt Damon of misogyny and sexual politics. :-)) I do so agree with this! What is disastrously lacking from most social media driven protest is any sense of perspective or proportion or the acknowledgement that many issues are extremely complex. Like I said before, all it takes is for somebody to accuse a person for everyone to instantly believe the accuser. Then that soon leads to anyone who dares introduce a note of caution or question being utterly and frequently unfairly vilified. I truly loathe trial by social media. Yes it does play a useful role in raising awareness of important issues but those issues then need to be properly investigated before guilt is decided. Social media does not wait for that to happen. The truth of the old saying “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing” is demonstrated everyday on the various social media platforms. |
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Post by mllemass on Aug 23, 2018 12:21:15 GMT
A little while back, when accusations against CBS president Les Moonves came out, Stephen Colbert talked about it on his show. Les Moonves had hired him and was his boss, so it was all very awkward. He really liked his boss and his first instinct was to defend him, but he didn’t. Instead Stephen said that powerful men had been abusing their authority and getting away with their bad behaviour for decades. He said it’s not true that they didn’t think they were doing anything wrong at the time because they went to great lengths to cover it up and silence their victims. The pendulum had swung so far in one direction that it was inevitable that it would now swing just as far in the other. And he said it would take time for it to slow down, but in the meantime we just have to accept this new attidude that any accuser is believed - because it’s been a long time coming and it’s the right thing to do.
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Post by ellie on Aug 23, 2018 12:33:08 GMT
No. Instantly believing that anybody accused is guilty is not, never was and never will be the right thing to do. It is an absolutely appalling attitude to take or accept.
It is utter anathema to every single principle of fairness and justice and I for one will never accept it and will have zero respect for anyone who does.
We have taken thousands of years to reach a point in our history where people are afforded access to a proper system of justice. It might not be perfect but it is sure as heck better than “you’re guilty because someone tweeted an accusation.”
Dear God have we really plumbed that depth of ignorance and stupidity as a society.
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Post by mllemass on Aug 23, 2018 13:02:05 GMT
Why would it be appalling to believe a woman over a man? Because that’s the issue here. And I was only explaining the role that social media has played in all this, not the actual justice system. That’s what Stephen Colbert was doing, too. His point was that the public rarely believed accusers in the past because the men were nice guys or happily married, or the women were gold-diggers trying to blackmail innocent wealthy men. And we know that most victims never come forward at all for fear of not being believed. Again, this is about social media. The court system still has to decide who is guilty or innocent.
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Post by roverpup on Aug 23, 2018 13:04:44 GMT
"And he said it would take time for it to slow down, but in the meantime we just have to accept this new attidude that any accuser is believed - because it’s been a long time coming and it’s the right thing to do."
I really love Stephen Colbert and agree with him on most issues but I can't agree with him on this (if I am understanding him correctly). I do not find it's
"the right thing to do" to accept an attitude of supporting unbridled accusations from any and all sources. "Any accuser is believed"... so, don't even try to sift through an allegation to determine if it has any kind of merit, just believe everyone??? No thanks! Sorry Stephen, I prefer to at least try to approach issues with some sense of critical thinking. There are malicious people out there who present themselves as victims, when in reality they just want to cover their own misdoings with unfounded accusations. To blindly accept their statements as believable facts and encourage others to join in with a mob mentality, is something I am very uncomfortable with. I won't ever "just... accept this new attitude" - I'd rather continue viewing every situation with degree of open mindedness, but also always temper it with rational thought, consideration and common sense - not blind belief and "bandwagon-ism".
:-))
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Post by ellie on Aug 23, 2018 13:15:13 GMT
Why would it be appalling to believe a woman over a man? Because that’s the issue here. And I was only explaining the role that social media has played in all this, not the actual justice system. That’s what Stephen Colbert was doing, too. His point was that the public rarely believed accusers in the past because the men were nice guys or happily married, or the women were gold-diggers trying to blackmail innocent wealthy men. And we know that most victims never come forward at all for fear of not being believed. Again, this is about social media. The court system still has to decide who is guilty or innocent. I never mentioned gender. It’s got nothingto do with believing a woman over a man or a man over a woman. It’s about applying due process to accusations rather than simply immediately believing them. You must surely see that accussations of sexual harrassment are wide open to malicious misuse - especially if all you have to do is say somebody did something to you for your word to be instantly believed. Yes women have had a raw deal but the way to fix that is not to abandon the justice system and burden of proof for a free for all where every woman is instantly believed over every man. That is ridiculous & entirely wrong. Not all women are saints and not all men are sinners. Maybe I’m old fashioned but I firmly believe everyone is entitled to a fair trial regardless of their gender or any other factor. And you can’t separate behavior on social media from the justice process. Social media has the power to destroy people regardless of what the eventual court decision may be. This whole thing makes me utterly furious & deeply depressed in equal measure. |
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