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Post by roverpup on Aug 24, 2018 18:32:07 GMT
The trouble is in the case of harassment, there isn't proof unless it was done in front of witnesses. (Unlike rape, with DNA evidence.) Either you believe the word of one party or the other. Really the only thing to go on is past behavior. If women fear they won't be believed without proof (which they probably don't have), they don't come forward and that pattern of behavior is never discovered. I'm not saying every woman is automatically truthful, but I'm not sure what the answer is. Hopefully something better than the past method of assuming women are automatically jealous, slutty gold-diggers trying to get revenge. My first thought is that the news should be kept quiet in case the man is innocent until investigation is done, but again, investigation of what if there is no possible proof? And when the news is kept quiet, any other victims are all thinking "I guess it was just me" and don't speak up. Look at all of the HW accusers who blamed themselves. Well, certain harassment does leave evidence. Like in the case of recorded incidences (video or audio) and then there is email evidence that is used on both sides to show harassment (or lack of). For example in one case against HW, the woman claimed that he was harassing her with unwanted sexual advances and yet there were emails entered into evidence that showed her to be a very willing participant and encouraging an even more closer relationship with HW. It isn't unusual to have more than a "he said/she said" on which to base a judgment of harassment on. Harassment charges typically are based on a pattern of behaviour over time, and that is something that often produces evidence (and/or witnesses as well because very few people live in social vacuums). This is very topical to me at the moment because our city's mayor is involved in a huge kerfuffle that he harassed 2 women at city hall and there's lots of "hard" evidence that has been presented on both sides. :-)) |
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Post by ellie on Aug 24, 2018 19:27:33 GMT
Ok. Here goes. I may get jumped on for this but I’m going to say it anyway because I like you guys and I like discussing stuff with you. Plus there’s not much BC news at the moment so we may as well discuss something else while we wait.😊
I recently saw a documentary in which some of the women who have accused Harvey Weinstein of sexual harassment told their stories.
Several things struck me.
1. All of the women interviewed had been told their meeting would take place in HW’s hotel bedroom. Would you go to a one on one interview/meeting with a man in his hotel bedroom?
2. All of them conceded that HW did not use force nor lock the door so they were free to leave at any time. Yet they didn’t. They chose to stay because they were concerned for their careers. Would you agree to sexual favours in the interest of your career?
3. All of them claimed to have been surprised by his behaviour. Now I live in a suburb of a small island three thousand miles from LA yet I’ve known about HW’s reputation for years via comments in magazines/ online showbiz news etc. Is it really credible that women, even on the peripheries of showbiz circles in the US were unaware of HW’s behaviour?
Let me make it perfectly clear I do not in any way condone HW’s behaviour. He is undoubtedly a boorish, sleazy individual who has behaved appallingly for years.
But, and here is the controversial bit, neither do I have much sympathy for the women I saw in that documentary. They made a conscious career choice to engage with rather than reject HW’s advances. I don’t see them as victims, I see them as people who made a choice they did not have to make. I also think that in making that choice they helped facilitate HW’s belief that it was ok for him to behave in that way. And in doing so they did a serious disservice to other women.
I am only talking about the women I saw interviewed. There may of course be others where the circumstances were different.
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Post by roverpup on Aug 24, 2018 20:09:16 GMT
I haven't seen the programme you spoke of but those same questions crossed my mind too ellie.
And I also don't understand why some of these women signed NDA. I would never sign something like that in lieu of affording me the opportunity of taking my rapist to court. Ever. $$$ would never make up for being sexually violated.
So why did some of them do that???
I just don't understand that mentality.
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Post by mllemass on Aug 24, 2018 21:58:58 GMT
About 1. My previous job included attending conferences in hotels, and it wasn’t unusual to attend presentations in hotel rooms. Sometimes they were suites, where we were in a living-room area and the bed was in a separate room. And other times they were normal hotel rooms but with only tables and chairs and no bed. But in HW’s situation, it was planned in advance. He would arrange to meet with them in a public area and have it switched once they got there. And don’t forget that a woman always accompanied them to his hotel room, creating a false sense of security. Once they got to his room, the woman disappeared. It was all part of his plan.
About 2. If HW convinced them that they could advance their careers in exchange for sexual favours, he’s still a rotten piece of slime.
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Post by ellie on Aug 24, 2018 22:23:20 GMT
About 1. My previous job included attending conferences in hotels, and it wasn’t unusual to attend presentations in hotel rooms. Sometimes they were suites, where we were in a living-room area and the bed was in a separate room. And other times they were normal hotel rooms but with only tables and chairs and no bed. But in HW’s situation, it was planned in advance. He would arrange to meet with them in a public area and have it switched once they got there. And don’t forget that a woman always accompanied them to his hotel room, creating a false sense of security. Once they got to his room, the woman disappeared. It was all part of his plan. About 2. If HW convinced them that they could advance their careers in exchange for sexual favours, he’s still a rotten piece of slime. Yes. I said in my post that I think HW is a boorish, sleazeball who has behaved apallingly. My point is not about disputing that fact but about questioning the actions of the women whose stories I saw in the documentary. At no point in any of their stories did they say HW used force or tried to prevent them from leaving the room. It was quite clear from their narrative that they could have got up and left but they decided to stay and do what he asked because they were thinking about their careers. That’s what sits uneasily with me when they’re portraying themselves as victims. They did not have to do what they did. It also does not paint women in a good light if we’re seen as being prepared to trade sexual favours in exchange for career advancement. |
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Post by mllemass on Aug 24, 2018 22:44:23 GMT
Just to be clear - I would never do anything like that. But it sounds like auditioning or interviewing for jobs in show business involves having to be “nice” to disgusting creeps. And when the disgusting creep can make you a star, you just might do it.
I honestly believe that there are many more HW victims that will never come forward because of the shame they must feel.
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Post by ellie on Aug 24, 2018 22:50:59 GMT
Just to be clear - I would never do anything like that. But it sounds like auditioning or interviewing for jobs in show business involves having to be “nice” to disgusting creeps. And when the disgusting creep can make you a star, you just might do it. I honestly believe that there are many more HW victims that will never come forward because of the shame they must feel. Fine, if they choose to exchange sexual favours for career advancement. That’s their choice. But my question is does it make them a victim? |
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Post by mllemass on Aug 24, 2018 23:41:02 GMT
What if they think they don’t have a choice? If this important, powerful, scary older man is acting like this is a completely normal step in advancing your career, you don’t have much choice. Of course it’s the wrong choice, hence the regret and shame years later. HW knew he was using his power to take advantage of these women, and even had non-disclosure agreements ready to go to keep them quiet.
It’s not like these women showed up to his hotel room, threw themselves at him and said “I’ll do anything to be a star”.
I used to wonder why women stayed with husbands/boyfriends who beat them or otherwise abused them. Why not leave the creep? But we know now that abusers are really good at choosing their victims. That’s why HW didn’t try anything with some women - he knew it wouldn’t get anywhere.
I’ll just add that sadly, there are probably women out there that would welcome HW’s advances. I used to work for a creepy pervert who would say disgusting things in social settings. One time, while drinking, he told a colleague that her 12-year-old daughter was becoming really hot. He proceeded to tell filthy “jokes”. I was thoroughly disgusted, but one of my (female) co-workers sat beside him all evening, laughing and having a great old time. To this day, I am baffled by what she found so appealing in what he was saying.
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Post by ellie on Aug 24, 2018 23:59:11 GMT
Yes, you make a good point about him choosing the particular women he was going to try it on with. I guess I’m coming at this from my perspective because I know I would tell him to “eff” off. No job is worth degrading yourself for.
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Post by queenzod on Aug 25, 2018 1:40:38 GMT
Now you’ve got my back up, Ellie, lol. Women (in general) are trained by society to be nice, accommodating, and compliant. It’s very difficult for lots of women to say no, to understand when someone doesn’t have their best interests at heart, or to know what to do when placed in a compromising situation. So they go along with it.
Abusers are master manipulators. That’s why abused women often don’t leave their husbands. After an abuse, the man will come back with “I’m so sorry, baby, I love you,” and she forgives him. Then the cycle repeats.
Harvey wasn’t just offering a job. I’m pretty sure he was talking up his plans for her career, the movies she’d make, the awards she would win. Maybe they thought, okay, well, this is how it’s done. Close your eyes and get it over. The promise of fame and riches can affect people very strongly.
You’re a strong woman, Ellie. Not everyone is like that. I’m sure that’s why HW never tried it on Meryl Streep. She would have smacked him. He chose women who were emotionally unsteady, and manipulated them. Just because they went along with it doesn’t make them not victims.
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