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Post by onebluestocking on Aug 27, 2018 16:05:43 GMT
I didn't see the documentary, so I can't speak to that. However I will say: 1) HW is not the only producer, but I suspect he's also not the only one doing this kind of thing. Going to another producer may well be the same situation. 2) Hollywood is awash in beautiful, young actresses. If given a big break, they don't just have their pick of this or that producer, except in rare cases such as Angelina Jolie. She chose not to work with HW and warned other women about him. However, she has a famous father and her foot already in the door in the film business. Not everyone has that. Here's a female comedian talking about this issue: www.nytimes.com/2017/11/10/opinion/sunday/louis-ck-harassment.html3) The women were absolutely right that HW could damage, or ruin entirely, their careers. Look at Ashley Judd. Actresses' careers are already notoriously short; spending your 20's recovering from an HW smear campaign can easily end them. He not only refused to hire them himself, he put out the word that women who turned him down were 'difficult to work with' to keep anyone else from doing so, either. Not to mention hiring Israeli intelligence to dig up dirt on them. 4) I don't understand the drive to be an actress, or a person who wants it so badly that they would give an ugly, mean, old fat man a massage. But I also don't understand BC driving himself so hard for a career where he is stalked by fans, lied about on the internet, works nonstop and misses his kids' childhoods while he is off filming who-knows-where. For whatever reason, some people just have that overwhelming ambition, and will endure whatever obstacles to pursue their dreams. And some people say "well, they asked for fame, so they can expect problems to come with it," and I agree about the long hours, travel, lack of anonymity, etc. But that should NOT ever be used to excuse illegal behavior (stalking, harassment, etc.) 5) I personally would not give HW a massage but, see #4. However I have been harassed, and did not punch those men, scream for the police, storm out, and get them fired like people imagine they would, either, and I'm not even talking about anyone nearly as powerful and intimidating as HW. Every keyboard warrior says "I would be a badass about it" in hindsight. I read an online comment that Fight or Flight are largely male responses to danger, while females are more likely to Freeze or Appease. That makes sense given that people who are smaller and weaker would be less likely to outrun or outfight a threat. I know I froze when in those situations, so I have no criticism for women who were caught off-guard and tried to get out of the situation safely as best they could. A crime is a crime, regardless how the victim reacted. That's like saying "it wasn't a mugging unless you fought for your wallet." I understand less the women who dated HW for years, but again, the relationships started with the same harassment or outright assault, and continued with perceived threats to their careers so I'm not sure if they could be strictly considered consensual. You'd need access to their communications with HW to see if they were encouraging him or not.
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Post by ellie on Aug 27, 2018 16:34:49 GMT
I don’t know if you’re calling me a “keyboard warrior” but let me defend myself just in case. I have been in such a situation with a guy in real life. One of my early bosses propositioned me after giving me a lift home. I told him that it was never going to happen. I said I will never mention this again if you never do this again but if you do I am going to tell all my colleagues and your wife. He never did it again and we never spoke of it again.
Ok maybe the situation wasn’t as threatening as the HW situation and maybe I didn’t care enough about a career in corporate communications enough to prostitite my self for it but I can say in all truthfulness that I am not a freeze and appease kind of gal!
And just to repeat I am not in any way shape or form exonerating HW. He is still guilty of harassment regardless of the women’s reactions.
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Post by onebluestocking on Aug 27, 2018 17:05:04 GMT
Which is why you didn't, but not everyone is like you, especially in their 20's. I'm not calling you in particular a keyboard warrior; just read any of the hundreds of #metoo article comment sections, filled with tougher people who would have handled things better. Did I already post this article about the dominatrix who runs the women's empowerment classes? www.thecut.com/2018/01/profile-kasia-urbaniak-founder-of-the-academy.htmlShe makes a fortune teaching about it, but the secret seems to be role playing in advance how to ask questions that put the man on the spot, refocus the conversation on him; a way to reset the situation and get out gracefully without angering someone with power over you:
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Post by ellie on Aug 27, 2018 17:23:56 GMT
I didn't see the documentary, so I can't speak to that. However I will say: 1) HW is not the only producer, but I suspect he's also not the only one doing this kind of thing. Going to another producer may well be the same situation. 2) Hollywood is awash in beautiful, young actresses. If given a big break, they don't just have their pick of this or that producer, except in rare cases such as Angelina Jolie. She chose not to work with HW and warned other women about him. However, she has a famous father and her foot already in the door in the film business. Not everyone has that. Here's a female comedian talking about this issue: www.nytimes.com/2017/11/10/opinion/sunday/louis-ck-harassment.html3) The women were absolutely right that HW could damage, or ruin entirely, their careers. Look at Ashley Judd. Actresses' careers are already notoriously short; spending your 20's recovering from an HW smear campaign can easily end them. He not only refused to hire them himself, he put out the word that women who turned him down were 'difficult to work with' to keep anyone else from doing so, either. Not to mention hiring Israeli intelligence to dig up dirt on them. 4) I don't understand the drive to be an actress, or a person who wants it so badly that they would give an ugly, mean, old fat man a massage. But I also don't understand BC driving himself so hard for a career where he is stalked by fans, lied about on the internet, works nonstop and misses his kids' childhoods while he is off filming who-knows-where. For whatever reason, some people just have that overwhelming ambition, and will endure whatever obstacles to pursue their dreams. And some people say "well, they asked for fame, so they can expect problems to come with it," and I agree about the long hours, travel, lack of anonymity, etc. But that should NOT ever be used to excuse illegal behavior (stalking, harassment, etc.) 5) I personally would not give HW a massage but, see #4. However I have been harassed, and did not punch those men, scream for the police, storm out, and get them fired like people imagine they would, either, and I'm not even talking about anyone nearly as powerful and intimidating as HW. Every keyboard warrior says "I would be a badass about it" in hindsight. I read an online comment that Fight or Flight are largely male responses to danger, while females are more likely to Freeze or Appease. That makes sense given that people who are smaller and weaker would be less likely to outrun or outfight a threat. I know I froze when in those situations, so I have no criticism for women who were caught off-guard and tried to get out of the situation safely as best they could. A crime is a crime, regardless how the victim reacted. That's like saying "it wasn't a mugging unless you fought for your wallet." I understand less the women who dated HW for years, but again, the relationships started with the same harassment or outright assault, and continued with perceived threats to their careers so I'm not sure if they could be strictly considered consensual. You'd need access to their communications with HW to see if they were encouraging him or not. Maybe I should have been a Dominatrix? Pretty sure the hours are better than corporate comms. 😄 Seriously though I do take your point. I guess it’s just the idea that anyone would think anything was worth massaging a naked HW for that I find incredible 🤢 But yeah maybe people who want to be successful actors are so scared of losing their dream that they will pay that price. Or, as you say, maybe HW can spot the freeze and appease type.
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Post by onebluestocking on Aug 27, 2018 17:48:17 GMT
I think in many, maybe even most, situations the women don't make this as an actual decision. It's not like HW sent a request for a massage in advance, and they thought it over and decided "yes, I'll do that for fame." More like they suddenly were caught in this horrible situation. There is a reason he approached them with job offers and began the meetings in a professional way, deliberately tricking them to get the element of surprise. Maybe they froze, or gave in due to some sort of fear (of physical danger, or harm to their careers), or many say "somehow I got out" as if they were in shock and can't remember exactly how it happened. As I mentioned above, HW had assistants whose job included calming down crying women leaving these meetings, so they weren't strutting out happy that their career plans to seduce HW had worked. I'm sure there were some (presumably Georgina Chapman), but I think most young women would feel just as you do: . It seems suspicious that nobody admits to actually sleeping with the guy. Obviously some people did, or he wouldn't have kept trying so often! But again, whether the women did or didn't give in does not change the legality of what he was doing.
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Post by ellie on Aug 27, 2018 18:11:46 GMT
We’re agreed that it doesn’t change the legality of what he was doing. I never said it did. Also I never said that women who did it for the sake of their careers were happy about it. No doubt they felt used and angry and embarrassed and humiliated and regretted it. The only point I was ever making is that I think that some women may have thought well maybe if I do this it will help my career and decided to go along with it. And nobody has, to my knowledge, said that so far. That was the impression I got from the women in the documentary I saw. But YES what HW did was still wrong.
As for the women who did the job of calming down the upset women, you do have to wonder how long they stayed in that job before they could no longer stand it.
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Post by onebluestocking on Aug 27, 2018 18:44:56 GMT
Asia Argento kind of said that about their years-long relationship; well, she didn't actually think it would help, only that she thought otherwise he would hurt the movie she had made. Probably nobody has said it, because nobody expected any actual good to come of it, only avoidance of the worse things HW could do.
I'm doing a poor job explaining this, but it's like a shy person trying to explain to an outgoing person who asks "why don't you just speak up?" Reading HW's #metoo accounts, I felt that many women were paralyzed by him and may have thought through the reasons later (career, for example). I really don't think most made a quid pro quo-type logical decision in that moment, that he carefully orchestrated to be unexpected and sudden. I was frightened just reading them. The only reason I keep arguing the point, is that the "women made the choice" argument implies that everyone involved weighed out the pros and cons and reached a deal, while I think many of these girls were just overwhelmed.
HW's enabling assistants were almost as bad as he was. Especially the ones who lured the women in, then left as soon as he entered the bathroom.
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Post by mllemass on Aug 27, 2018 19:00:26 GMT
I remember reading that the first reaction some of the women had at being asked to massage HW was that he was just another Hollywood weirdo. I think that eccentric behaviour is much more common and accepted in some professions. I think one even told him something like “No, thank you!”, as if she’d been offered a cup of coffee. And afterwards, they left crying, realizing what had actually happened to them.
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Post by ellie on Aug 27, 2018 19:35:03 GMT
But then you wonder what power he had over those assistants that facilitated his behaviour. Were they afraid of what would happen if they didn’t, did he promise them promotion, were they just not that bothered because that behaviour was pretty par for the course in Hollywood. It’s all really hard to fathom. I will be interested to see what comes out in court. I’m sure HW will have the best lawyers but still.... the witnesses evidence will still get out there.
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Post by sgev1977 on Aug 28, 2018 0:33:55 GMT
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